From the News Sentinel’s Daily Rant
With all the money being spent by the city and the county on bike paths, I propose that a fine should be administered for any bicyclist who refuses to use the bike path and elects to ride in the road next to a bike path.
Ditto.
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Wow, typically brilliant and well-thought out rant.
Might have trouble getting around the fact that state law gives bicycles equal access to the roads.
I didn’t write it… however, I’ll give you some examples where it should apply. Take highway 14, (Illinois Road) from Hadley to Scott. Once the construction and the addition to Aboite Trails are completed, as well a sidewalk on the opposite side, there’s no reason for bikes on the highway, and it is a traffic hazard.
Another point. Bass Road from Scott to Hadley. I see a guy out there several times a week and he *has* to ride in the road, there’s no shoulder. There is a posted speed limit of 45 mph. With a small exception, it’s no passing from Scott to Hadley. The guy travels at maybe 18 mph, and traffic backs up until he gets to Hadley, with the exception of the ass that tries to pass and endanger all of us.
This cyclist then goes down Hadley to Illinois and back to Scott road on on to Chestnut Hills where he apparently lives. He’s inviting an accident. With all of the Aboite trails available, not to mention many other alternatives, I can only classify this guy as an asshole inviting a confrontation.
My guess is, once Bass is widened he’ll still insist on being an asshole road ranger.
I think I see who the asshole is here.
The roads are not for your exclusive use. If you have to slow down for a mile or two before you can safely pass and that angers you greatly? That rage is the result of your own lack of control.
If you or someone else decides to take their rage out on this person, that’s not his fault.
BTW, I live near Bass Road and ride on Thomas sometimes too. Is a “confrontation” going to be something “I brought on myself” that I should have to worry about?
Why the hell are we spending millions on greenways then? Once they’re there, are you suggesting that bikers don’t use them?
I stay behind the purported asswipe, but I don’t like it. I’m not aggressive, but I sure as hell cannot fathom why he insists on riding down three roads that clearly are not cyclist friendly. He’s out for a ride. There are other options.
This guy doesn’t use a bike like you to get to work, the store and everywhere else. He’s a yuppie that likes getting in his spandex and showing off.
FWIW, I respect cyclists even if I think as in the case above they’re being belligerent.
I never said any such thing and you know it. I am saying that there’s no way you can REQUIRE they be used instead of roadways.
As it stands, given where I live it is actually impossible for me to avoid being on Bass Road.
I hate to break this to you, but I pay local/state/federal taxes too, and have just as much right to those roads as anyone else, no matter their reason for riding. Even someone who doesn’t drive does. (Before anyone brings it up, fuel taxes only pay a /fraction/ of even any road upkeep, much less construction. That money by itself wouldn’t even keep up with repairing the damage motorized vehicles do to roads.)
You’re making a mistake, though. It’s not that the roads aren’t cyclist-friendly. It’s the self-centered, entitled jerks driving inconsiderately, too fast or just plain dangerously that make it unfriendly.
I lived out that way for most of my life. The roads you’ve named aren’t even AUTOMOBILE-friendly. What makes you think that bikes, and bikers should be shielded and coddled with some sort of manifest ‘right of use’? Although I support bicycling, I have to agree with Dan. Given the options, I would suggest an alternate route…unless the cyclist in question is simply trying to make a point, by being an asshat. Riding in or on ANYTHING on Illinois Road, from Schwinn to Hummer, is taking your life into your own hands.
I look to your closing line, with two words changed, to describe the problem from the view of motorists….
“It’s the self-centered, entitled jerks RIDING inconsiderately, too SLOW or just plain dangerously that make it unfriendly.”
Extremists, and instigators, usually come from both sides of any issue, after all…..
Since pedestrians always have the right-of-way, I propose that everyone start walking down the middle of the road, 10 abreast or so. That way, bicycle riders AND cars will have to slow down a little and wait the two miles or so before they can be self-centered, entitled jerks riding/driving inconsiderately, too fast, or just plain dangerously… Sharing the road is one thing. Obstructing normal traffic on a road is stupid.
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Hey, Tiny. The motorists have a responsibility to drive safely, not as fast as they can. It’s not everyone else’s job to move fast enough not to annoy them.
IC 9-21-11-2
Roadways; rights and duties
Sec. 2. A person riding a bicycle upon a roadway has all the rights and duties under this article that are applicable to a person who drives a vehicle, except the following:
(1) Special regulations of this article.
(2) Those provisions of this article that by their nature have no application.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.9.
It’s not a crazy “manifest right of use,” it’s the law. You might want to be aware of it, as you’re bound by it driving on these roads.
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title9/ar21/ch11.html
We’re not obstructing traffic, Kent. WE ARE TRAFFIC.
Hey Michael, why don’t you quit being a hippy douche and get a car. If you want to ride your bike, put it on top of your CAR and take it far away from roads designed and meant for CARS. Parks, river greenway, whatever, quit pissing in everyone’s lemonade for your personal enjoyment.
The idea that you have a right to the roads is law, indeed, but that doesn’t make you any less of a hippy loser for being so arrogant as to inconvenience everyone else with your stupid hobby.
I have to say that Russell is using the shameless tactics mastered by Fox News. When you have lost an argument you quickly deflect this fact by insulting your opposition. If you can’t put together a reasonable response to a well thought out argument, then don’t. You marginalize yourself and your cause by acting so childish.
Here’s to you Michael for taking the high road. Sensibility, kindness, respect, patients, and THE LAW are on your side.
Ride On
P.S. Russell, I expect an expeditious response fraught with juvenile comments.
The idea that you have a right to the roads is law, indeed, but that doesn’t make you any less of a hippy loser for being so arrogant as to inconvenience everyone else with your stupid hobby.
And you know what? I’m all right with that. I don’t mind being considered an arrogant hippy loser, as long as you acknowledge that you and I have the same rights to use the road. Keep on truckin’, man.
Well Vincent, I won’t make your day. What I will do is give a little lesson about being a decent human being.
One of our duties as Americans, humans, and individuals, is to seriously consider the impact we are having on others with our actions. This isn’t some liberal hippy crap, this is called being a good citizen.
I know that whenever I do something which inconveniences another person, whether that is spilling a drink in a restaurant, or accidently making a driving error, I feel bad for the inconvenience I have caused someone else. I have taken time out of their day, caused them an annoyance, and done this for no good reason.
Bicyclists don’t have this mechanism. They believe that because they have the “right” to ride on whatever road they choose, they should. It does not matter to them whether they are creating a traffic obstruction, because they have the “right”. Illinois, Scott, Hadley, and so many others are urban arteries, carrying commerce, people, goods and services about our fair city. They are designed for automobiles to travel, and thats who should be on them.
There are plenty of parks, greenways, state facilities and rural roads to satisfy the riding hunger of bicyclists. But they are so arrogant, self centered, and frankly, douchey, that they would rather hundreds of motorists be delayed and inconvenienced in their travels, than the bicyclist be inconvenienced by loading his bike and taking it outside the urban landscape.
So you have one person (or sometimes and entire group of them) who rather than inconvenience themselves, would inconvenience dozens, hundreds, and perhaps even thousands of other people while they take a ride for their hobby.
Those people are assholes. I can create a long and drawn out argument against their actions, but that still makes them what they are.
My concern is the safety of the cyclists. If I lived out that way, I would be afraid to ride my bike on those roads. I know friends of someone who was killed out there. It was horrible. An ounce of prevention…..
Just like, a different topic by the way, in the city cats and dogs are to be kept within the boundaries of the owner’s property. People have a tendency to allow cats freedom in the city. Well, I look at it this way, if you really CARED about your cat (or dog) wouldn’t you want provide for its safety and keep it in your own yard? JMO
Once again, an ounce of prevention….
Driving on the west side on town does just suck period… construction or not. Glad I don’t live there anymore. My only issue, along St. Joe Road north of “Bikes and Boards”, is bike riders and pedestrians wearing black, or dark clothing at night. I don’t know if its the angle or what, but I can’t even locate a reflector sometimes. There’s not much street lighting there in that section so maybe that’s why that is such a weird little area, and that is a thin little road as it is…
Well, for anyone keeping score, walkers don’t want cyclists on ‘their’ trail, motorist don’t want cyclists on ‘their’ street. So I guess the only thing left is to build bicycle trails along the existing trails.
But then we have to figure out what to do with the runners who insist on running in the street rather than use the sidewalk that they are running alongside.
I guess we could build a 3rd trail just for the runners. But that’s beginning to get silly.
Wow, Russell sounds arrogant, self centered, and frankly, douchey’ too.
The problem with this whole arguement is that as usual, the minority wants to run the majority. The majority of the traffic is cars and trucks, but they have to bend over backwards for the bikes. The bikes do NOT pay a road tax, They do NOT follow the rules most of the time and they force others to indanger themselves because they (bike riders) don’t care what they cause others to do.
This is the same as some old guy going down 69 in rush hour traffic at 40. He has a right to, but he is going to get himself or someone else killed in the process.
I have know 2 people in my life almost killed riding on the side of roads because they had a right to be there. Just because they had a right does not mean they are not a dumb ass.
But i guess that makes me an arrogant ass as well.
Well, the best argument against Russell seems to be Russell. No real need to elaborate there.
@Mike Harvey
Bike Ninjas. Nobody likes bike ninjas, not even other people on bikes. http://yehudamoon.com/index.php?date=2008-01-26
@me
“Tyranny of the Majority.” You might want to have a google at that.
Sure the majority of overall traffic is cars. But bikes and other forms of transport are traffic, too. If you can’t deal with the traffic, get off the road.
You don’t seem to get the clue that everyone pays for the roads through property and other local taxes. And I hate to break this to you, but I also have a car. So do a lot of people who ride. But I already went over that above. I’ll have to conclude you either don’t read very well, or simply choose to remain ignorant.
If following the rules 100% of the time is a criteria for allowing use of the roads, cars and trucks fail it as well.
Non-point, @me.
Actually, it’s not the same as the old guy. He could go faster if he chose to, and non-motorized bikes aren’t allowed on interstate highways. No inherent massive speed differential, just one caused by a driver choosing to drive too slowly in an environment that does only allow cars.
Terrible example there, @me.
“Just because they had a right does not mean they are not a dumb ass.”
Or, “I’m too impatient and selfish to pay attention to non-motorized traffic and drive safely, therefore riding bikes is dangerous!” Nice little trick you pull on yourself there. You displace the blame for the danger onto the possible victims. /You/ can’t be troubled to drive safely or sanely, but it’s the other people’s fault for using a form of transport that’s more vulnerable to damage from /your/ vehicle. Are motorcyclists or anyone in a vehicle smaller than yours dumb, too?
No @me, I wouldn’t call you arrogant. You make yourself look bad enough on your own.
Every time I’ve been in a traffic jam it’s because there’s too many cars on the road. If there’s a cyclist that’s slower than you, no need to get your panties in a bunch over it. Just pass as if it were like a tractor or other slower traffic. There’s other issues in the world worth your anger, not this one.
FROM MICHAEL K
IC 9-21-11-2
Roadways; rights and duties
Sec. 2. A person riding a bicycle upon a roadway has all the rights and duties under this article that are applicable to a person who drives a vehicle
Then I expect that the bicyclist follow traffic laws, like stopping COMPLETELY at a stop sign as a motorized vehicle is required to do. My observation of bicyclists is that they are hypocrites that don’t quite believe that they are required to observe the “DUTIES” of being on that road.
@Outsider
Nobody’s arguing that cyclists shouldn’t follow the laws.
But just because you’ve seen some not obey the laws doesn’t mean you get to tar them all with the same brush. That’s as dumb as saying that cars shouldn’t be allowed on the road because you’ve seen some of them make rolling stops or what have you.
Of course, I don’t really like the people in minivans yapping on cell phones that have almost hit me. You’re not going to catch me saying that people shouldn’t be allowed to drive minivans based on that limited number of observations.
Though for entertainment purposes, I suppose the Idaho Stop law ought to ENRAGE you. Especially since it makes sense.
http://www.bta4bikes.org/btablog/2009/01/15/frequently-asked-questions-about-idaho-stop-law/
and everyone will feel sorry for that poor cyclist when he gets hit by a car because he didn’t STOP at the stop sign.
By the way, we don’t live in Idaho…I’m just saying.
@MichaelK:
Bless your heart….since you’ve made assumptions about me, my assumption about you is that you’ll end up dead on your bike but you will be in the right….although dead.
Does this mean that bicycles will give me the right away if I decide to drive on the Greenway/Trails???? My tax dollars paid for that too.
Michaelk
How is me being on a road like bass, wallen, reed or many others behind a bike make me the problem. It is not safe to pass. but i am the selfish one who dose not want to kill you, me or the on comming car. I nor the oncomming car have put us in this position, but will pay the price.
It is foolish to think that because your car is taxed you have a right to put as many things on the road as possible. I own 5 cars-trucks and have to plate each one. But if i played the loto, i would not have to get plates cause that pays for the roads also. How about we do tax the bikes and build them bike lanes.
You say an old man going 40 does not have the right, but the law says he does. And don’t forget you can go faster also. Drive your car.
Now why is russell’s point ignored. He has a good point. When you feel you have the right to make others lives harder, the one who’s life you have made harder is now the problem. There is a place to ride a bike, and a 2 lane hilly road is not one of them.
But since google would tell me otherwise i would recomend you go out side once in a while and get off the computer and open you eyes. You may learn something like in fort wayne indiana most people drive cars. But what do i know, i looked at a road and came to that all by myself, You have google.
I always get a laugh out of that ‘cyclists need to follow the law and stop at stop signs.’ What are we supposed to get from that, that all motorists DO stop? Gimme a break. Nearly every car I see at a 4-way rolls and never quite makes it to ‘stop’ status. It’s hell trying to discern if they *think* they stopped and are about to hit the gas or if they are just coasting along, impatiently waiting for me to get outa the way.
Then there are the ones that are checking the cross traffic to see if they NEED to stop or can just shoot right on through. They only see and/or stop for big hulking objects like delivery trucks – you know, objects hurtling towards them that could actually inflict injury on them or their precious Beemer (insert favorite brand here).
My last thought for motorists vs cyclists:
It won’t kill YOU to be a little more patient and give a cyclist a little more room. But it might kill THEM if you don’t.
I don’t get why you tree huggin bikers don’t get it.
It has nothing to do with patients, it is about danger. You by YOUR selfish acts are indangering others. If you are riding on the side of a 4 lane road and i have to slow down and wait i don’t give a crap, whats 30 seconds. But when i’m on a 2 lane road and try to pass someone is going to die because your selfish ass can’t find a smart place to ride.
And as far as the cyclist breaking the law, I can’t tell you how many time one of you selfcentered asses passed me on the right at a stoplight after i just spent the last 5 min passing you.
Russel, me, and others – get a life.
You tell me to get a car. Whatever. The Michigan DMV doesn’t think I should be behind a wheel because of medical issues, but if you feel otherwise, you can lobby Lansing to change laws on eligibility.
I am not primarily a recreational rider. I ride for transportation. I will choose the most efficient route to get where I need to be. The bike trail in town only goes so far; and I don’t take it if it’s not going to get me where I need to go.
But when i’m on a 2 lane road and try to pass someone is going to die because your selfish ass can’t find a smart place to ride.
1) A smart place to ride is one that gets me where I want to go.
2) Chances are, you don’t really need to pass. You just want to go a little faster.
There is a place to ride a bike, and a 2 lane hilly road is not one of them.
Yes, actually, it is.
It seems trivial to amend the state law to say “… except if there is a parallel bicycle-only path reserved for use of the bicyclists. Bicyclists shall retain the right to use the motorway for the minimum purposes as required to interact with other, non-bike-path-equipped, roads”
ie, if you’re traveling down a road, and there’s a bike path, you’d be required to use it, but when you need to switch to a perpendicular road that DOESN’T have a bike-path, you’d still be able to basically “get to the road, and use it to go over to that other, non-equipped, road”.
I agree that if you don’t require their use, there’s no point in spending taxpayer dollars on them. Let the bicyclists have a bake-sale to come up with the cash if they want them so bad.
Me:”And as far as the cyclist breaking the law, I can’t tell you how many time one of you selfcentered asses passed me on the right at a stoplight after i just spent the last 5 min passing you.”
-Indiana State Law IC 9-21-8-6 states that if there is room to safely pass on the right, and stay on the pavement, a cyclist can legally pass on the right. I am not saying its right for you to have to pass me again, but it IS legal
There are SO many things that make the roads dangerous. The motorized wheelchair I saw going down Lindenwood yesterday, guess what, there was no sidewalk there. Slow moving farming/lawn equipment, Mopeds, street sweepers, POS cars, What about pedestrians walking down the road?
I DO bike to work sometimes, I will take the trails instead of taking Jefferson, it just makes sense. BUT I am required to go down a few extremely busy roads to get to the bike trails. Do you think that I shouldn’t be able to bike to work? Or what should I do? There are no sidewalks along these busy roads. I think that I should be able to bike to work.
I also enjoy a nice ride along the open country roads. For me to get there I have a few options to get out west of my residence, Illinois Rd(14) would do it, but there is no way I would do that, too busy. Covington is extremely busy also and virtually no shoulder the majority of the way. Bass Rd. is the best option, cars do still go fast, and there are small hills, but it is the best option. Or should I just not go biking because people dont think that they do not have to share the road?
The majority of bike trails in the country are paid for by grants and not local tax dollars anyways
I should note that there aren’t very many “bicycle-only” paths in the country – most of them (in my experience) are heavily used by pedestrians.
On one occasion, I even saw a couple of girls strolling casually in a designated bike lane on the road.
Bikers are still selfish assholes who think obstructing the flow of traffic is perfectly fine as long as its them that is obstructing it.
There is no more argument to be had here. You biker hippies keep riding your bikes along the busiest roads in town, failing to stop at stop signs, cutting into traffic lanes because the paved shoulder ends, etc. Thats fine, and when some driver runs your ass over, I will rejoice, because there is one less asshole in the city, wasting my time with their hippy notions and retarded hobby.
Oh, and double for mopeds.
@Outsider – Is that some sort of lame threat? Whatever.
@me – I suppose you and the oncoming car will pay a price if you decided to pass when you shouldn’t. You’re not even making sense anymore.
And well, you see why we don’t pay any attention to Russell there.
I suppose you and the oncoming car will pay a price if you decided to pass when you shouldn’t. You’re not even making sense anymore.
This comment just shows how self centered you people are. No-one should feel holding someone up for minutes is their right to do. You selfish bastards won’t even give people a break and get out of the way when you can. You think i should wait on you, but when was the last time a biker pulled over to let the 10-20 cars behind them pass.
Your last comment shows just how ignorant you are. You are also probably the same bastard who speed down a quite residental street and run small kids off the road cause they are in your way.
Get a f-ing life and quite pushing yourself on everyone else.
Bikers are still selfish assholes who think obstructing the flow of traffic is perfectly fine as long as its them that is obstructing it.
Repeating that doesn’t make it true.
So much hostility here. I can see both sides of the debate and understand where you are coming from but shouting at each other solves nothing. I am also a bicyclist. Owning a vehicle is expensive. You have to pay for gas, insurance, and maintenance. With the economy how it is right now I for one find it almost necessary for me to ride a bike than drive a car.
But I do abide the laws of the road. I stop at stops and generally if there is a sidewalk I will use it. I won’t use the trails though, because more often then not they are so winding and out of the way its ridiculous. It might be okay for recreational, but I ride to get somewhere, not for fun. However, there are some streets where there are no sidewalks or the sidewalks are in bad need of repair and I am forced to ride on the road.
I understand how it can be irritating, but rather than cuss me out, why not call up the city council and get them to pave new sidewalks and fix the bad ones. Alot of us bicyclist would much rather ride away from morons that are always in a hurry to get somewhere.
No MichaelK…it isn’t a lame threat.
Just being in the right doesn’t mean you won’t be hurt….but truly I give up on you. You’ve got an attitude and so be it.
Riding on the sidewalk is one of the most dangerous ways to transport yourself on a bicycle. Sidewalks are designed and built as their name implies, for walking to the side. It seems counterintuitive but cars and the people in them, are not expecting fast moving bicycles to be crossing in front of them as they turn onto another street, into a driveway, or backing out of one. As cars approach an intersection they (hopefully) look for pedestrians (bicycles are not pedestrians) before making a right or left turn. You speeding along the sidewalk on a bicycle are likely to be overlooked and injured in an accident. Also, cycling on the sidewalk is very dangerous for people, however rare it maybe in Fort Wayne, who walk and play on sidewalks. Again, your high rate of speed and relative silence as a bike rider makes a collision much more likely. Except in the case of young children, bicycles, by law, are to be on the street participating in traffic like all other modes of transportation.
What seems to be missed in this discussion is that bicycles are big benefit to cyclist and car drivers alike. As another post pointed out, cars cause traffic jams not bikes. Not to mention contributing to pollution, tens of thousands of deaths each year in accidents, obesity (more deaths), wasteful consumption, and as evident by some on this page, a rather large disconnect from social norms of kindness and respectful treatment of fellow humans. A well maintained bicycles is over 95% efficient, quiet, SMALL, sufficient for most traveling needs, a great form of exercise, and part of a real solution to energy concerns. If more people rode these machines their would be a large decrease in noise and the cost of roads, healthcare, insurance (auto and life), energy, food, and most everything else.
For those of you who haven’t embrace the bicycle, the future will leave you behind. Energy, food, healthcare, and most consumer goods are going up in price, wages are stagnant, but the cost of operating my bicycle seems fairly stable.
Best of Luck,
Ride On.
Vincent, et al…
I am about as sick of hearing about your latest conspiracy theories. This crap that ‘you will be left behind’.. is pure nonsense. What world do you possibly live in?
The REST of us don’t believe in the new Paganism that you do. You worship your space and do not use the common sense that you were given to pay attention to the one who created you. IF you did, you would surely see that it is a ridiculous and unrealistic notion to use bicycles unless you live in the basement of your parent’s home and wear a calculator on your wrist. Or you are Amish, who are tolerated.
For the FEW that live within riding distance of your workplace and can get reasonable groceries, well whooop-ti-du.
The REST of us in the real world have to get their children school because YOUR government can’t efficiently do so. The REST of us have to drive over 100 miles a day to make a living in the career that their college degrees led them to because YOUR government can’t run a school system without putting it into the ground and saturating the market-place with laid off teachers every time they give themselves a raise.
The REST of us save our coupons and get groceries a couple times a month to SAVE MONEY and buy at the best place they can find to feed their children. We don’t line the pockets of some hippie bag maker, either. We reuse the plastic bags because they WORK.
We don’t tread on the side of the road every day, putting children’s futures in jeopardy by possibly being run over just because it makes us feel better.
And thank GOD some day. You may need him when you are laid up on the side of some road, or better yet, look back after the wreck you just caused which killed a child.
Go back to your parent’s basement and come back when you grow up and can relate.
I see more dining room tables have arrived.
Michaelk, You have time and again written people off who have valid arguments when the give good reasons why you pushing your life on us is a selfish move on your part, but rather discuss why you riding a bike, getting in the way of others and just being a jackass is ok.
Instaed of calling people a dinning room table, how about you explain why you are more importain the the rest of us.
Or you could just get run off a cliff and die.
And if your one of those bikers who wear the tight shorts, get a life, you look like an ass.
holly crap i’m tired, i hope you can fill in the blanks on that last one
@me
Your basic premise flawed. You assume people are pushing a lifestyle on you, that we’re not traffic and that we’re getting in the way of others… And then you go right to name calling.
“Instaed [sic] of calling people a dinning [sic] room table, how about you explain why you are more importain [sic] the [sic] the rest of us.”
Except no one ever said any such thing, and there’s nothing to explain. There’s no valid argument there. It’s not valid just because you claim it is. And you just can’t reason or argue with crazy/stupid anyway.
I’d go on with you, @me, but we’d just both get dirty, and you’d like it.
Is this really a huge debate? Srsly? If I’m on a bike and I’m behaving myself, no harm no foul. If I’m in a car and the guy on his bike is behaving himself, no harm no foul. I’m particularly impressed with Jennifer up there who’s somehow cross-indexed children on sidewalks and vehicular homicide with plastic grocery bags and Jesus. While impressive, I’m sensing a disconnect from reality. No one’s got some weird sort of “Church of Bike”, so lamenting their attempts to ‘convert’ anyone is just a little massively paranoid. And the law says bikes get treated just like scooters and mopeds and motorcycles and Hummers so do that and everybody’s fine.
Take a deep breath. Or two, or twelve.
Have Fun
Harlequin
To all the bike enthusiasts, I would like to point out that Dan’s original post did not talk about people riding on roads where there are no bike paths. He simply said that if they are on a road that has a specified bike path, then they should be required to use it instead of the other lanes. Do all of you bikers agree with that?
Also, I think the law is being misreading here. It does not actually say bikers have the right to access all roads. It simply says when acessing roads they have the same rights and duties as cars. We have restricted other traffic in Fort Wayne, making it illegal to drive large trucks on certain roads. Using similar logic, we could restrict bikes altogether from certain roads if it posed a danger or a problem with traffic flow.
And to all those who don’t bike, it should be noted that bicyclist are in fact doing you a favor. While I think Vincent’s comment was a bit over the top (mostly because the biker’s have shown themselves to be just as uncivil) one thing they do contribute is helping to lower the overall consumption of gas. By decreasing the demand for this product, they cause the price to be lower for all of us.
I think there are probably more people than many of you realize who actually depend upon a bicycle for their transportation. Of course they should be courteous and try not to hinder car traffic, but many of the roads really give them no choice. I think our goal should be to have a system that allows bikers to access the entire city, and it is not reasonable to expect them to go miles out of their way to stay on designated paths. But if a designated bike path is on or very near to a road, then there is no reason why bikes should not be required to use them instead of mixing with the cars.
I always love hearing stories from the drivers who insist they spend precious “minutes” driving slowly behind bicyclists until they can pass safely. Yeah, right. Try timing it the next time a cyclist slows you down. If you’re slowed down for more than ten seconds I’ll eat my hat.
Sorry, angry white boys, your right to go as fast as you like does not trump my right of way. Don’t like that? Feel free to petition your legislators to change the law. Until then, you guys just keep on yapping about how much you like running us over. It’ll make great theater at your trial.
“He simply said that if they are on a road that has a specified bike path, then they should be required to use it instead of the other lanes. Do all of you bikers agree with that?”
No.
The problem is hopping on and off them at reasonable places (and not suddenly disappearing and reappearing in road traffic flow) plus many of those paths are multi-use – I don’t think we want people weaving in and out of walkers and people with strollers and such.
We’re safer the more we integrate into the road system, and the more drivers get used to seeing bikes out and dealing with them, the less of a problem it becomes.
=ahem= : http://iminurfortkillingurdudes.blogspot.com/2009/05/speaking-of-safety-in-numbers.html
“We have restricted other traffic in Fort Wayne, making it illegal to drive large trucks on certain roads. Using similar logic, we could restrict bikes altogether from certain roads if it posed a danger or a problem with traffic flow.”
You want to pay for all the designation work and signage and enforcement that would entail, for something that really isn’t a big problem (aside from a few VERY VOCAL commenters on a blog)? Also, if you’re going to attempt to equate large truck traffic with bicycles I think you need to prepare to get laughed at.
Michael,
You stated:
While you seem to feel privileged about your rights to use the road, the Greenways and Aboite Trails are designed for bike use. As a matter of fact, Aboite Trails’ logo is a bike (http://www.aboitenewtrails.org).
It wasn’t designed exclusively for foot traffic. However, since many cyclists cannot peacefully co-exist with motorized vehicles due to their unwillingness to obey the law, maybe they should stay off the trails.
As for jumping in and out of traffic, you can take the trails to an intersection in most parts of town and then safely re-enter traffic. It’s called “yielding.”
From the Fort Wayne Trails web site:
Based on how the Critical Mass breaks the law, (and I know you participate), I’m not surprised by your attitude. During the monthly Critical Mass rides you intentionally block intersections where oncoming traffic has a green light, (called corking). Recently here in Fort Wayne one rider was arrested as the mass took to the streets around Parkview Field for flagrantly disobeying a police officer, and during that same ride many of the Critical Mass cyclists intentionally went the wrong way down a one-way street.
From what I gathered looking at the four trails web sites, somewhere over $10 million is being spent to provide cyclists with a safer way to get around. With most of the bitchers and whiners on here most likely Critical Mass riders, and considering the subversive nature of Critical Mass and their deliberate attempts to obstruct traffic, disrupt normal city functions and refusing to obey traffic laws, you have a weak argument at best.
So now I have a question for you. Here in Aboite the 12′ wide trail is complete from Hadley Road to Scott Road along the entire stretch of Illinois. Do you still think you have the right, and would you ride on Illinois Road instead of the trail?
Michael,
I am certainly not saying bikes should not be allowed to diverge from those lanes when necessary. But like all traffic, when changing lanes or otherwise interrupting the smooth flow of traffic, they should be the ones to yield.
Suppose I’m driving in my car and I plan to turn left at the next intersection. But that lane is full and I’ll have to wait through several light changes to get through. So, If I decide to just shoot through the right lane (which is clear) until I have nearly reached the light, then suddenly cut over to force my way in the left turn lane, wouldn’t that put me in the wrong? Is it any different when a bike does this?
The truth is that a lot of bicyclist are very selective about the traffic laws, meaning they expect cars to obey but that they should not have to. Many bicyclist cut in and out of lanes, cut crossways in the middle of roads instead of at the intersections, and alternate freely between road and sidewalk at will. I have no idea whether you act in this manner, but I think it is the actions of those who do that cause people like me to rant.
If I am driving my car along a busy roadway with limited access, and I miss my turn, I have to keep driving until I reach the next turn. Many bicyclist would simply cut across traffic, do a u-turn in the middle of the intersection, perhaps even cut across the grass median to get there, then wonder why all the cars that whiz by them are being so disrespectful.
A couple weeks ago, I was driving my truck loaded with some very long lumber on it. I used a lot of rope, but I have a short bed, so the situation was still a bit precarious. Because of this, I did not feel safe driving faster than thirty miles an hour. I had no other way to get the lumber home, so I really didn’t worry about offending the assholes whole rode my bumper. However, any chance I could, I pulled over a bit to allow them (as well as the others behind who may not have been assholes themselves) to pass.
If a person is traveling at less than the posted speed limit, it is common courtesy to pull over at any available opportunity to allow the traffic they are blocking to pass. This is true whether the person is driving a car or riding a bike, yet most bikes don’t seem to observe this.
Your last post shows that you are guided either by arrogance or you are simply letting your anger at a few asshole drivers affect the way you react to all drivers. You seem to find it to be a problem that you are expected to hop on and off the bike lanes at specified points rather than whenever and wherever you want to. Cars aren’t allowed to do that, so why should bikes?
“While you seem to feel privileged about your rights to use the road”
Um, I have that right. Whether I feel “privileged” about it is of no concern or matter.
The roads weren’t design exclusively for cars. They were designed for all sorts of traffic; they even came before cares. The League of American Wheelmen. You might want to look up who the earliest proponents of the Good Roads Movement were.
“Since many cyclists cannot peacefully co-exist with motorized vehicles due to their unwillingness to obey the law, maybe they should stay off the trails”
Since many motorists cannot peacefully co-exist with other vehicles (at all) due to their unwillingness to obey the laws, maybe they should stay off the roads.
There, fixed that for you. You know that goes both ways, and some people not obeying the laws isn’t a reason to exempt an entire class from usage. Are you not reading or does it just not sink in?
Way to ignore everything *I* wrote on my blog about CM and the arrest (and the video I took that you cheerfully used on your blog AND the work I went through to get the police report) and the whole courteous mass thing… but I guess in your limited mind I’m the CM leader now. Which just underscores your lack of understanding.
As for the question, it doesn’t matter what I think. The law says we have the right. And if I need to ride on a road instead of a trail because conditions make it better, I will.
(BTW: I have ridden on Illinois. Oh noes!)
@Phil Marx
So basically you’re saying that since you’ve observed some cyclists not obeying the law to your satisfaction, I should be restricted in some way.
Hey, Phil. I’ve seen some motorists not obey the law to my satisfaction. I’m not saying all cars should be kicked off the road. Imagine that.
“Your last post shows that you are guided either by arrogance or you are simply letting your anger at a few asshole drivers affect the way you react to all drivers. You seem to find it to be a problem that you are expected to hop on and off the bike lanes at specified points rather than whenever and wherever you want to. Cars aren’t allowed to do that, so why should bikes?”
Guided by arrogance. Yeah. OK. Suuuure.
You didn’t read a damn thing in that link I put up, did you?
Also: HOW is a car going to hop on and off bike lanes? Of COURSE they can’t do that. That’s just a dumb question.
As for Critical Mass, I was merely stating the facts. I followed your work on getting the police report for a while, but I have no idea where that all ended. The fact remains CM riders flagrantly violate traffic laws. I do applaud you for the Courteous Mass effort, (actually, I forgot about that, and not conveniently either), so feel free to tell us here or link to it.
As for my question, I’m taking your answer as a yes, which truly shows your arrogance. The trail is 12′ wide with no cars on it. How could the conditions on Illinois Road be any better?
Dan, the real question is: Why would I ever want or need to be riding, driving, or otherwise in Aboite?
That’s good news for motorists in Aboite then, eh?
Michaelk,
“So basically you’re saying that since you’ve observed some cyclists not obeying the law to your satisfaction, I should be restricted in some way.”
No, I’m saying that allowing motorists and bicyclist to mingle freely with no restrictions causes safety issues and impedes the flow of traffic. I’m saying that both groups should be restricted in certain ways in order to maximize both safety and mobility for all.
“Hey, Phil. I’ve seen some motorists not obey the law to my satisfaction. I’m not saying all cars should be kicked off the road. Imagine that.”
I never said anything that even remotely approached advocating that bikes be thrown off the road. However, if there is a distinct bike path that runs parallel to the road, then for all practical purposes that is the road for bikes. To say you should be able to drive in the car lane, even when an exclusive bike lane is right beside it, is about as valid as saying you want to drive on the left side of the road or you want to be able to turn left from the right lane. Rules are necessary, and many bikers flagrantly disregard them. I do think those bikers should be kicked off the road.
And no, you did not say that motorists should be kicked off the road. You simply said that your selfish habits should be allowed to render their vehicles useless as far as a being a mode of transportation.
“You didn’t read a damn thing in that link I put up, did you?”
Yes, I read all of what you said. And I thought you actually sounded reasonable at first. I say this because it was the motorist comments that mostly said you should just get the f*** out of their way, while you seemed to be simply asking for mutual respect. But then you went and said that you should be able to ride anywhere and any way you damn well please. That is sheer stupidity as it causes danger and impedes the flow of traffic for all (motorists as well as bikers).
“Guided by arrogance. Yeah. OK. Suuuure.”
Motorist have rules that limit their ability to just drive however the hell they please. And I gave a few examples of how such laws inconvenience them. Yet you (and many other bikers) do not think you should be bound by such restrictions. Yes, I do think that is arrogant.
My comments could easily be summarized as having said “Bikes and motorists should have access to all areas of town. However, ensuring safety and free flow of traffic requires that both groups observe certain rules that limit their completely unimpeded movement in certain ways.” The fact that you drew some type of criticism out of that shows that you are beyond arrogant and just plain stupid.
so let me understnd this, you don’t want to ride on the trails cause its unsafe for you and the people walking because you aren’t patient enough to co-exist with the slower walkers?
And what about the poor stray dogs who love to run out into traffic? At least they have an excuse as they are really too stupid to understand the necessity for having traffic rules.
@me If I’m going to work, I don’t need the trails. Roads get me there just fine.
I’m not going to abandon the road (bicycles are vehicles, remember?) to get on a trail just because some motorists don’t want me there.
This is not to say I will never ride on trail. Get it?
Vehicles are better on the road. Pedestrians on the sidewalk. Trails are an option, but not always the best.
Is this getting through to you? This has nothing to do with patience. Clear?
Did you read the link I left, @me? RTFA.
@Phil
Oh Phil. You have no idea the caliber of entertainment you’re providing elsewhere.
“Hey, Phil. I’ve seen some motorists not obey the law to my satisfaction. I’m not saying all cars should be kicked off the road. Imagine that.”
I never said anything that even remotely approached advocating that bikes be thrown off the road. However, if there is a distinct bike path that runs parallel to the road, then for all practical purposes that is the road for bikes. To say you should be able to drive in the car lane, even when an exclusive bike lane is right beside it, is about as valid as saying you want to drive on the left side of the road or you want to be able to turn left from the right lane. Rules are necessary, and many bikers flagrantly disregard them. I do think those bikers should be kicked off the road. And I’ll admit that you never suggested that motorists be kicked off the road. But you did imply that your selfish behavior should be allowed to render them useless as far as being a mode of transportation.
“You didn’t read a damn thing in that link I put up, did you?”
Yes, I read all of what you said. And I thought you actually sounded reasonable at first. I say this because it was the motorist comments that mostly said you should just get the f*** out of their way, while you seemed to be simply asking for mutual respect. But then you went and said that you should be able to ride anywhere and any way you damn well please. That is sheer stupidity as it causes danger and impedes the flow of traffic for all (motorists as well as bikers).
“Guided by arrogance. Yeah. OK. Suuuure.”
Motorist have rules that limit their ability to just drive however the hell they please. And I gave a few examples of how such laws inconvenience them. Yet you (and many other bikers) do not think you should be bound by such restrictions. Yes, I do think that is arrogant.
My comments could easily be summarized as having said “Bikes and motorists should have access to all areas of town. However, ensuring safety and free flow of traffic requires that both groups observe certain rules that limit their completely unimpeded movement in certain ways.” The fact that you drew some type of criticism out of that shows that you are beyond arrogant and just plain stupid.
@phil
The situation you describe rarely, if ever exists. We certainly don’t need a law to kick bikes off the road whenever you find an excuse. That’s the point.
It’s nice that you somehow manage to turn your selfishness for the road around into cyclists somehow being selfish for not wanting to be arbitrarily kicked off it.
“But then you went and said that you should be able to ride anywhere and any way you damn well please. ”
I never said that, and you know it. You’ve devolved into name-calling, and I think it’s apparent you’re not going to process anything said to you.
Mihael,
You keep putting words in my mouth which are completely different from what I said. And when I refute your comments poin by point, thinking that maybe you are just too angry to have read my comments in the first place, you respond with more idiocy. You’ve proven definitively that you are just an idiotic and selfish ass.
And regarding the entertainment, yes, I do realize that idiots like yourself are easily entertained.
Michaelk,
You said “You’ve devolved into name-calling, and I think it’s apparent you’re not going to process anything said to you.”
Yet you were the first to go low by saying “…That’s just a dumb question.”
It really is difficult to process the foolish statements you make here, but I think I have done a pretty good job so far. Many of the commenters were saying you (bicyclists) should just stay out of their way. I actually refuted that, saying that both groups should have certain restrictions placed on them to guarantee safety and traffic flow, while also saying that both groups should easily be able to navigate anywhere through the city. Yet you allowed your anger at those people to cause you to misread entirely what I said and to attribute their words to me.
I first tried to point this out in a civil manner, but after refusing to read what I said and continuing to mischaracterize what I said, the point came where I really thought I was doing you a favor by pointing out how stupid your comments were. Some people just need a slap of reality every once in a while and they snap out of their stupid trance. But apparently with you it is a deep-seated condition and throwing common sense at it just makes it worse.
Unfortunately, now when I see cyclists, I’ll think of Michael & his attitude. Too bad.
Phil, I’ve read your blog. I already know there isn’t much point in being reasonable with you. Not backing down in the face of nonsense isn’t anger, Phil.
“What’s surprising, the researchers say, is that biker safety doesn’t seem to correspond to a city’s efforts to cut down on accidents. Run-ins between bikes and cars had little to do with miles of bike lanes or lower speed limits. But if the number of bike riders in a city doubled, the rate of bike-car accidents dropped by a third.”
Shoving. Bikes. Off. The. Road. Doesn’t. Help.
@Outsider
And here you were such a great proponent of sharing the road to begin with.
and MichaelK, you certainly have an agenda here as well…..hope it works for you.
Of course he has an agenda; so do I, so do you, so does everyone else on this thread.
So what?
Russel:
“Bikers are still selfish assholes who think obstructing the flow of traffic is perfectly fine as long as its them that is obstructing it.”
Here are some other selfish people one the road:
http://www.adamscountytravel.org/gallery/images/Amish%20buggy.jpg
http://hardscrabbletimes.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/amish2.jpg
Maybe they should be banned.
Jennifer
“Or you are Amish, who are tolerated.”
How nice that you tolerate the Amish. What other religious beliefs do you so Kindly allow to be tolerated?
Eric
You should read the laws a bit more carefully:
“IC 9-21-8-6
Overtaking and passing on the right; conditions
Sec. 6. (a) A person who drives a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:
(1) When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn.
(2) Upon a roadway with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width for two (2) or more lanes of vehicles moving lawfully in the direction being traveled by the overtaking vehicle.
(b) A person who drives a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions that permit overtaking upon the right in safety. Overtaking upon the right may not be made by driving off the roadway.”
Amish use buggies because they have a cultural and societal standard that preclude them from using gasoline powered vehicles.
Bicyclists are hippes or hobbyists who are tying up traffic for their personal rightousness, enjoyment, or idiocy.
Further, Amish pay road tax and deserve to use those roads, while bicyclists selfishly consume space and time on the roads without paying a dime.
“Amish use buggies because they have a cultural and societal standard that preclude them from using gasoline powered vehicles.
“Bicyclists are hippes or hobbyists who are tying up traffic for their personal rightousness, enjoyment, or idiocy. ”
Do you have ANY IDEA how much sense that doesn’t make? You hate “hippies” (I suspect this actually means “anyone not as conservative as yourself”) for being culturally different from you… but the Amish it’s OK.
I think what you really are is a hateful bigot, Russell. Don’t like people that are different from you living around here? Feel free to leave. Good luck finding someplace populated entirely with people just like you.
“Further, Amish pay road tax and deserve to use those roads, while bicyclists selfishly consume space and time on the roads without paying a dime.”
This is either a lie or outright ignorance. How is it the Amish are paying a “road tax” without buying any gasoline… are you talking about plating a vehicle?
Because it still doesn’t matter. We already went over how Indiana roads are paid for and maintained with a combination of gas taxes/registration fees/general taxes/bonds.
Everyone pays for the roads whether they use them or not. If anything, motorized vehicles don’t pay their fair share relative to the amount of wear and tear they create on those roads.
yea russell, leave, you stuipd bastard. How dare you want to drive your CAR on a road. You should just leave and go somewhere where roads were made for cars.
@MichaelK
Ya, you weren’t kidding you stupid troll. “You have no idea what entertainment you are providing elsewhere” (you wrote above)
From your post (you ARE dj_flx), dissing everyone on this site and town on your precious “Bike Pirates” (http://community.livejournal.com/bikepirates/3500257.html)
“Sometimes I feel like I have to share things like this because without bikepirates, I might actually start thinking I really AM the weird one.”
Go away. Trolls are worthless.
@Jennifer
That’s NOTORIOUS dj_flx to you!
Aw, I have my own little internet stalker.
Ah, Jennifer. It’s not like we could let such prize nutbaggery as yours be wasted. And I hate to break this to you, but you’re not representative of everyone on this site much less this town.
You don’t know what a troll is, do you? Hint: Just because you got owned on another site doesn’t make me a troll I’m afraid.